Why Half the Country Can't Access Clean Energy, And What’s Changing | Rob Hallifax
What if the biggest gap in the clean energy transition isn't technology or politics, but simply who the products were designed for?
In this episode of Why Design, Rob Hallifax shares the belief that sits at the heart of his work: that half the country has been left behind by clean energy, and that the right physical product can change that. Rob is co-founder of Windfall Energy, a company building a compact home battery specifically for renters and flat-dwellers, the people for whom solar panels, heat pumps and big home batteries have never been a realistic option.
Rather than building another clean tech product for homeowners with garages and south-facing roofs, Rob and his co-founder designed something different: a 2.5 kWh battery that orders online, arrives by courier, and automatically charges on cheap overnight electricity to power your home during expensive peak hours. That decision, to start with who was excluded rather than who already had options, led to Bethnal Green Ventures backing the company, conversations with major UK energy providers, and a pre-order campaign launching in early 2025.
This conversation isn't about home energy storage.
It's about who clean technology is designed for, and who it quietly ignores.
This conversation isn't about Kickstarter tactics.
It's about what a decade of crowdfunding campaigns teaches you about making products people actually want.
Join the Why Design community -> teamkodu.com/whydesign
6c. What You'll Learn
- Why roughly half of UK homes are structurally excluded from every clean energy product on the market, and what it takes to build for that gap.
- How the economics of battery cells and electricity pricing have only recently made a product like Windfall viable, and why timing matters as much as the idea itself.
- Why Rob treats the industrial design of a home battery as a commercial priority, not an afterthought, and how that shapes every decision from designer brief to product form.
- Why Windfall leads on saving money rather than saving the planet, and what it means that cheap and green electricity are effectively the same thing on the UK grid.
- How a B2B2C strategy through energy companies solves distribution, tariff integration and end-user complexity in one move.
- What a decade of Kickstarter campaigns actually teaches you about validating physical products, building audiences before launch, and knowing when to walk away from something that is not working.
Memorable Quotes
"We thought, what can we make for the people who've been left behind? Effectively half the country."
"The making of the thing is kind of the easy bit. The hard bit is always finding customers, making a product that people actually want."
"If you're not embarrassed by your first product launch, you've waited too long."
"In terms of marketing stuff, we lead on saving money and the green thing is more than just a happy bonus. They are definitely tightly integrated."
"You need to know when something's not going to work and be prepared to kill it. That can be hard, especially when it's your own."
Resources and Links
🎧 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube & Amazon -> whydesign.club
👥 Join the Why Design community -> teamkodu.com/whydesign
📸 Follow @whydesignxkodu on Instagram
🎥 Watch full episodes -> YouTube.com/@whydesignpod
🔗 Follow Chris Whyte -> linkedin.com/in/mrchriswhyte
🔗 Explore Windfall Energy -> windfallenergy.com
🔗 Connect with Rob Hallifax -> robhallifax.com , LinkedIn
About the Episode
Why Design is powered by Kodu, a specialist recruitment partner for the hardware and physical product development industry.
Through honest conversations with designers, engineers, and creative leaders, we explore not just what they build but why they build it; the beliefs, decisions and responsibility behind meaningful work.
About Kodu
Why Design is produced by Kodu, a recruitment partner for ambitious hardware brands, design consultancies and product-led start-ups.
We help founders and leadership teams hire exceptional talent across industrial design, mechanical engineering and product leadership, bringing structure and clarity to one of the hardest parts of scaling.
🔗 Learn more -> teamkodu.com
Transcript
(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) So effectively that means all our batteries are
Speaker:kind of aimed at those five percent of
Speaker:people Which again is kind of crazy that
Speaker:that's almost like the mainstream market.
Speaker:It's just a tiny little niche.
Speaker:I think Yeah, whether this is good or
Speaker:not people care more about money than the
Speaker:climate I guess that's probably why we're in
Speaker:this mess.
Speaker:Rob Halliefax is a mechanical engineer who spent
Speaker:a decade running Kickstarter campaigns 10 products over
Speaker:300,000 pounds raised and sold into 70
Speaker:or 80 countries now He's co-found in
Speaker:windfall energy a 2.5 kilowatt hour home
Speaker:battery for renters and people in flats The
Speaker:half of the UK's 28 million homes that
Speaker:no existing clean tech product was built for
Speaker:every other home battery on the market is
Speaker:built To go in the garage behind a
Speaker:panel somewhere.
Speaker:You never have to look at it Rob
Speaker:decided his product was going to live in
Speaker:someone's living room So he hired a designer
Speaker:whose background is ikea and lakeland not batteries
Speaker:not electronics furniture Just about half the homes
Speaker:in the uk.
Speaker:So there's 28 million homes in the uk
Speaker:and about half are either flats renters small
Speaker:homes People for whom sell the panels.
Speaker:They don't have a roof.
Speaker:They don't have space for a big Tesla
Speaker:Powerwall or something.
Speaker:Then I asked the question that gets to
Speaker:the heart of what windfall actually is Do
Speaker:you see windfall first as a climate company
Speaker:that has to pay for itself or as
Speaker:a money saving device that happens to be
Speaker:green?
Speaker:yeah, I'd say the latter like we've been
Speaker:speaking to a lot of people about this
Speaker:over the months and I think Yeah, whether
Speaker:this is good or not people care more
Speaker:about money than the climate I guess that's
Speaker:probably why we're in this mess Rob said
Speaker:something near the end of this conversation that
Speaker:I keep thinking about When you wake up
Speaker:in the morning and you see A battery
Speaker:that has magically overnight chart filled up with
Speaker:cheap green electricity.
Speaker:There's a very it gives you a very
Speaker:warm feeling This episode is about what happens
Speaker:when you build hardware for people everyone else
Speaker:forgot where the product decision isn't the cells
Speaker:or the firmware It's making something people actually
Speaker:want in their home This is why design
Speaker:So Rob welcome to the podcast Great to
Speaker:have you on why design?
Speaker:Um, thank you.
Speaker:We're going to dive in.
Speaker:I know this has been Yeah, long in
Speaker:the making I can't remember when we first
Speaker:met but it was at some some mixer
Speaker:Um in london, um many many months ago.
Speaker:Um, but yeah here we are.
Speaker:So thank you for your time.
Speaker:Um, so Rob You've had this Slightly unusual
Speaker:mix of mechanical engineering connected products a decade
Speaker:of crowdfunding going about so far And now
Speaker:you're building windfall a plug and play battery.
Speaker:Um home battery for for renters Um before
Speaker:we get into how that all fits together
Speaker:Take me back to a moment where everything
Speaker:shifted Maybe take me back to that kind
Speaker:of the iot london meetup where you met
Speaker:your co-founder You know Tell us where
Speaker:you were in your life and work that
Speaker:night and what was going through your head
Speaker:as you walked into that room Yeah, actually
Speaker:I'll go back a tiny bit further.
Speaker:So iot london that meetup where I met
Speaker:my co-founder that's been going over a
Speaker:decade now, I think um and About probably
Speaker:about 10 years ago.
Speaker:I went to my first one so kind
Speaker:of iot Has always been part of my
Speaker:sort of professional life for quite a while
Speaker:now And I guess back then also it
Speaker:was kind of pretty new It was almost
Speaker:like the kind of ai of its time
Speaker:where everyone was talking about iot Everyone was
Speaker:questioning whether it's overhyped or underhyped and it
Speaker:was a sort of interesting area I think
Speaker:at the time that it interested me because
Speaker:it Brought together the physical and the the
Speaker:digital because I'd as you you said I
Speaker:started off Doing mechanical engineering at university and
Speaker:then but got into kind of digital product
Speaker:management.
Speaker:Um, quite a while after that So i've
Speaker:always had that kind of software hardware Sort
Speaker:of uh balance and so iot Is kind
Speaker:of the perfect uh crossover between hardware and
Speaker:software So i've been going to those meetups
Speaker:for many years and last year, uh There
Speaker:was a guy talking as as happens at
Speaker:those events He was doing a a pitch
Speaker:about his actually his previous company Which was
Speaker:a squeevie energy and they were uh, or
Speaker:they still are a Company that manages car
Speaker:charging and overnight based on the optimum pricing
Speaker:of your tariff and electricity is that sort
Speaker:of thing?
Speaker:um And I can't really remember how You
Speaker:know what?
Speaker:These events are like kind of organic you
Speaker:talk afterwards and I think we might have
Speaker:ended up in the pub with a few
Speaker:of us and we sort of got chatting
Speaker:about Ideas and he he had just left
Speaker:that job.
Speaker:So he was actually Talking on behalf of
Speaker:the companies and they just left.
Speaker:Um, and I was also kind of looking
Speaker:for a new challenge to get stuck into
Speaker:and so we sort of I guess got
Speaker:on with each other and had a good
Speaker:kind of rapport in terms of how we
Speaker:Chatted about things and we both both kind
Speaker:of new iot technology But I guess crucially
Speaker:weren't too similar in that There's kind of
Speaker:no point if both of you have exactly
Speaker:the same skills and it can be quite
Speaker:fun You get on but if you're too
Speaker:perfectly aligned in terms of what you can
Speaker:Do and your experience is kind of no
Speaker:point in having both of you there.
Speaker:So we had the perfect balance.
Speaker:I think of Having enough in common because
Speaker:I think when you're especially when you're starting
Speaker:out having the the kind of very Sort
Speaker:of quick communication where a kind of shorthand
Speaker:for getting stuff done and being able to
Speaker:understand each other So you need I think
Speaker:some level of overlap in terms of always
Speaker:find engineering is a good example because I
Speaker:kind of some of the generic terms of
Speaker:engineering that are very kind of precise and
Speaker:useful Language that can kind of communicate things
Speaker:very efficiently.
Speaker:I think when you have that with someone
Speaker:it's quite you can get through quite a
Speaker:lot But then equally we realized we had
Speaker:different skills and balanced each other out in
Speaker:some ways.
Speaker:So it was kind of Totally random.
Speaker:I mean Like all these sort of events
Speaker:you I might just not have gone I
Speaker:could have just had something else on or
Speaker:would maybe feeling a bit under well under
Speaker:the weather or something and it's kind of
Speaker:weird these moments where Things happen and I
Speaker:suppose serendipitous.
Speaker:Yeah, but the way I look at that
Speaker:is you Getting out there doing things.
Speaker:I mean, who knows maybe i'd have met
Speaker:a better co-founder if i'd gone somewhere
Speaker:Yeah You never say that to actually But
Speaker:that's the point like yeah I think the
Speaker:point is to get out there meet people
Speaker:talk to people and stuff will happen You
Speaker:don't know what it's going to be and
Speaker:it might things sometimes happen sometimes I don't
Speaker:but getting out there talking to people is
Speaker:makes things happen It certainly does I posted
Speaker:today because we've got tomorrow's episode which is
Speaker:going to feel dated by the time this
Speaker:goes out but you know tomorrow's episode is
Speaker:Is is will butler adams co of prompt
Speaker:and bites and he famously Got the job
Speaker:at Brompton by chatting to the chairman on
Speaker:the bus He didn't know who the guy
Speaker:was from adam And he could have chosen
Speaker:to have his headphones in like they said
Speaker:he chose to spark a conversation And then
Speaker:the next day he's driving hundreds of miles
Speaker:essentially for an interview um and 23 years
Speaker:later he's You know running one of the
Speaker:most iconic hardware brands in the country.
Speaker:So it's um You know, you never know
Speaker:what you should put yourself in those positions
Speaker:You never know what good will come of
Speaker:it.
Speaker:So yeah, I think that's the key It
Speaker:doesn't it won't come to you.
Speaker:You have to get out there and find
Speaker:it massively Yeah, you said um when we
Speaker:prepared for this you said it felt like
Speaker:a little bit like dating over coffee You
Speaker:know, what was the yeah?
Speaker:Was there a moment where you realized that
Speaker:this isn't just good chat?
Speaker:This could you know, this could be there
Speaker:might be the person that I could build
Speaker:a company with um I can't remember if
Speaker:there was a particular eureka, but I guess
Speaker:it was we Kind of went for coffee
Speaker:then another one.
Speaker:I think we started I guess both of
Speaker:us kind of have the inclination to make
Speaker:stuff I think that's where we started just
Speaker:packing things together and sketching and even Actually
Speaker:pretty early on started coding up the kind
Speaker:of basic app for for approach type.
Speaker:We were working on this.
Speaker:I think it was when Because you can
Speaker:get on with someone and sort of lots
Speaker:of different levels and what is that can
Speaker:you work together and can you actually?
Speaker:sort of bounce ideas off each other and
Speaker:move things forward.
Speaker:I think we quickly realized we could do
Speaker:things so And we were hanging out in
Speaker:the british library back in those days couldn't
Speaker:have an office or anything.
Speaker:So Just seems like he would hack together
Speaker:a little app I would go away kind
Speaker:of make a logo spun up a squarespace
Speaker:website and stuff sort of happened organically and
Speaker:and I guess any Any point so that
Speaker:time we didn't have a limited company or
Speaker:anything It was just a couple of guys
Speaker:doing having a project and maybe At any
Speaker:point it might just not have turned into
Speaker:something.
Speaker:Maybe we wouldn't have wouldn't have come across
Speaker:An idea we thought had legs.
Speaker:Uh, so it's all just small Incremental steps.
Speaker:Yeah moving forward and maybe both of us
Speaker:having It's kind of a cliche but kind
Speaker:of agile development and just just doing small
Speaker:things and iterating moving forward and seeing what
Speaker:happens.
Speaker:Mm-hmm Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Do you remember?
Speaker:um Because i'm gathering from kind of the
Speaker:first kind of A few prototypes that there
Speaker:wasn't that the battery wasn't Not on the
Speaker:cards then was it wasn't the business wasn't
Speaker:set up for the battery That's right.
Speaker:Yeah So do you remember the first time
Speaker:when kind of the idea of a renter
Speaker:friendly plug-in home battery kind of showed
Speaker:up in your conversations So I think actually
Speaker:it was the almost the renter friendly thing
Speaker:came first.
Speaker:So we both live in flaps in london
Speaker:and we were thinking There's just nothing in
Speaker:terms of clean tech and energy saving there's
Speaker:kind of nothing for you if you live
Speaker:in a flat um all Clean tech stuffs
Speaker:about uh, solar panels heat pumps All these
Speaker:things that if you live in a flat
Speaker:and especially if you're renting you just can't
Speaker:Can't do so we thought about if I
Speaker:remember at the time it had been There's
Speaker:always every once a year in the uk
Speaker:everyone complains about how hot the weather is
Speaker:and how Like uk buildings aren't designed for
Speaker:it.
Speaker:So we thought maybe there's something we could
Speaker:do around Some iot thing with sensors and
Speaker:blinds that automatically monitored temperature in different parts
Speaker:And because there's always the question of should
Speaker:I open the window or not?
Speaker:When's it too hot to open the window?
Speaker:When are you supposed to and that all
Speaker:those we thought that could be an iot
Speaker:solution somehow so that Kind of started there
Speaker:and then we thought about kind of An
Speaker:iot plug became out.
Speaker:That was our first product.
Speaker:We actually kind of made so we thought
Speaker:an iot plug that Similar to the the
Speaker:kind of logic that ashley's previous company did
Speaker:where it looks at The electricity price over
Speaker:a day and knows when the cheapest time
Speaker:is and then the uk cheapest is pretty
Speaker:much always the greenest as well So it's
Speaker:kind of a double win So we thought
Speaker:what about a smart plug that monitored electricity
Speaker:price and only turned on when it was
Speaker:cheap So you could set a threshold or
Speaker:whatever or a certain number of hours.
Speaker:So we actually Because we thought that would
Speaker:be pretty easy to prototype.
Speaker:We actually just Luckily enough came across so
Speaker:I can't remember how we met this guy
Speaker:But I think an acquaintance of ashley happened
Speaker:to have a box of 200 smart plugs
Speaker:that he'd not needed He had some other
Speaker:project and didn't need them So we got
Speaker:200 free smart plugs, which we were able
Speaker:to Basically flash the firmware and have them
Speaker:to do what we wanted.
Speaker:So we then Made these products and again,
Speaker:it was very we had no money at
Speaker:the time So we didn't have any investment
Speaker:or anything So we just what was the
Speaker:low cost low effort way to move something
Speaker:forward and test and try so we had
Speaker:in the end we That smart plug we
Speaker:gave about 100 out to people who We
Speaker:met at meetups and just friends and family
Speaker:people just to say hey, do I have
Speaker:a go at this?
Speaker:Try it test it anything and It was
Speaker:cool.
Speaker:I actually still have one behind me which
Speaker:I use But we realized that it just
Speaker:wasn't impactful enough that you could people were
Speaker:For example charging their smartphone overnight in the
Speaker:cheapest two hours, but you save like fractions
Speaker:of pennies doing that and so we thought
Speaker:what's actually more more impactful and then For
Speaker:a while we looked at actually charging batteries
Speaker:with the smart plug And then we kind
Speaker:of got on to get what if the
Speaker:battery just is the smart thing itself.
Speaker:So Then we hit on the idea of
Speaker:a smart battery that again monitors electricity for
Speaker:price and only fills up Cheap electricity and
Speaker:then puts the electricity back into your house
Speaker:at the expensive times Bro, we're kind of
Speaker:skipping ahead, but i've got questions that I
Speaker:don't want to not ask later.
Speaker:So So, how does it work then you
Speaker:know in in practice is it kind of
Speaker:is it It plugged into the mains.
Speaker:It's drawing electricity to charge the battery.
Speaker:Is it then feeding it?
Speaker:It's not feeding back into the mains.
Speaker:Is it or so it is.
Speaker:Um, okay Yes, I mean generally the overall
Speaker:premise is pretty obvious and I guess a
Speaker:lot of people say why doesn't exist why
Speaker:haven't people done before and I mean a
Speaker:couple of reasons one is The electricity price
Speaker:certainly uk has just gone up and up
Speaker:and up and at the same time The
Speaker:battery price of battery sales has gone down.
Speaker:So the roi Is worth doing?
Speaker:So that you can make you could save
Speaker:enough money with a product at the right
Speaker:price that is worth doing whereas probably even
Speaker:Five ten years ago just wouldn't have paid
Speaker:for itself So it would have been it
Speaker:would have been a nice kind of novelty
Speaker:product.
Speaker:It wouldn't have been had much value And
Speaker:so Yeah, the plug and play isn't interesting.
Speaker:So we the idea is it Plug and
Speaker:play a single plug that plugs into a
Speaker:regular socket in the wall In the uk
Speaker:at the moment that's not allowed So technically
Speaker:there's no reason why you can't push electricity
Speaker:back Through a regular plug through a socket
Speaker:and it will effectively just power The circuits
Speaker:in your home.
Speaker:So That works.
Speaker:It's kind of It's a lot of people
Speaker:Question me when they're like, how does that
Speaker:work?
Speaker:And it just it's sort of In a
Speaker:way simpler If you just have like a
Speaker:load and a power source And if if
Speaker:something not in your house is is turned
Speaker:on it will come from the battery if
Speaker:the battery's Putting energy out um, so It's
Speaker:Yeah, how does that work then about does
Speaker:it kind of know to pull from the
Speaker:battery rather than just from the the So
Speaker:it's more about when the battery needs to
Speaker:know when to push.
Speaker:So if the battery is effectively pushed it
Speaker:turned on Exporting so discharging then whatever happens
Speaker:to be on will just take that electricity,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:And so in Germany and quite a few
Speaker:countries in europe and a few other places
Speaker:in the world That has become a thing
Speaker:in the last only the last sort of
Speaker:five years Um where you can plug a
Speaker:regular socket a regular battery So I threw
Speaker:into a regular socket to put power back
Speaker:The sort of the wrong way as people
Speaker:see it um, and there's talk of that
Speaker:changing in the uk and that's something we're
Speaker:uh, kind of keeping an eye on and
Speaker:hopefully that will change and we're doing our
Speaker:best to Speak we're speaking to energy providers
Speaker:and other people who may have some more
Speaker:more influence in that than we would as
Speaker:a small startup Um, but in the short
Speaker:term we have a kind of interim solution,
Speaker:which is a hardwired solution So an electrician
Speaker:will come in and it's sort of like
Speaker:a half an hour quick job.
Speaker:The electrician will because one of the rules
Speaker:is a Bs 7 6 7 1 I
Speaker:think is the wiring regulation about you're not
Speaker:supposed to have a Generating device that is
Speaker:connected to the home via a plug or
Speaker:socket.
Speaker:So there so you need a hardwired connection
Speaker:Okay, that's that's the kind of workaround on
Speaker:the short term.
Speaker:So a bit like the way a cooker
Speaker:is hardwired Yeah, sort of behind the behind
Speaker:the counter, but that would be still relatively
Speaker:easy to retrofit and remove for the next
Speaker:renter or Are you targeting this at landlords
Speaker:to put into their homes?
Speaker:I could could be either.
Speaker:I mean, yeah ideally In the future when
Speaker:it is plug and play then a renter
Speaker:So a renter is unlikely to live in
Speaker:a house for more than like two three
Speaker:years I think is fairly in london particularly
Speaker:fairly common.
Speaker:So you kind of want them To take
Speaker:it with them.
Speaker:So there the battery will last 10 years.
Speaker:So yeah giving value over that time So
Speaker:you want people to be able to make
Speaker:the most of it?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker:So um Well that there's this loop back
Speaker:then so um Obviously the name of the
Speaker:podcast is why design so we've got to
Speaker:at least include that question, but in your
Speaker:case Um, why engineering, you know, you studied
Speaker:mechanical engineering.
Speaker:What kind of started you off On that
Speaker:path of kind of pulled you into product
Speaker:development I suppose I mean i've always liked
Speaker:making things as a kid, but that's a
Speaker:bit of a cliche again, but lego.
Speaker:I like lego Drawing just kind of making
Speaker:Anything was always what I was into um
Speaker:and my dad was a civil engineer and
Speaker:so engineering was kind of sort of on
Speaker:my radar and I was quite good at
Speaker:maths and science and it was just sort
Speaker:of I mean you make those choices when
Speaker:you're Kind of a teenager don't really have
Speaker:any idea what the world's going to give
Speaker:you later on in life and I I
Speaker:think I guess engineering is a good degree
Speaker:to have it's pretty you learn a lot
Speaker:of stuff and you learn You learn a
Speaker:lot about just how to problem solve and
Speaker:and it's not necessarily Like ask me about
Speaker:the second moment of area and I wouldn't
Speaker:have a clue But it's like you learning
Speaker:the broader kind of principles around engineering.
Speaker:Yeah, and to be honest actually at the
Speaker:time I almost after my first year wanted
Speaker:to change uh degree subjects I thought engineering
Speaker:was just a bit too kind of prescriptive
Speaker:and It was all I wanted to do
Speaker:ad friends doing other subjects where they could
Speaker:do take electives in philosophy and other stuff
Speaker:and in Certainly in my department you had
Speaker:everything you did was in the mechanical engineering
Speaker:department He had a few choices within that
Speaker:but otherwise it was all very much and
Speaker:so I Almost changed to geography.
Speaker:So my life Quite different if I had
Speaker:but actually i'm of the age where I
Speaker:Wasn't paying tuition fees, but only by one
Speaker:year So if I'd have dropped out and
Speaker:restarted I'd have had I would have changed
Speaker:my whole life Had to pay tuition fees
Speaker:and grants and stuff was all totally different
Speaker:So that was part of the reason why
Speaker:I didn't and in hindsight I'm, very glad
Speaker:I didn't because I I love engineering and
Speaker:i'm a big Advocate of it.
Speaker:Let me interrupt for 30 seconds with something
Speaker:most hardware founders learn the hardware The skills
Speaker:that get you from prototype to product are
Speaker:not the same skills that get you from
Speaker:product to scale That transition is where leadership
Speaker:matters At codu.
Speaker:We help physical product companies hire senior leaders
Speaker:who can formalize roadmaps build world-class teams
Speaker:and align product with commercial strategy director vp
Speaker:c-suite If you were entering a new
Speaker:category raising capital or professionalizing your product function
Speaker:This is not a hire to rush.
Speaker:So find me chris white on linkedin and
Speaker:let's talk before you make the call Yeah,
Speaker:I mean it looks like just looking at
Speaker:your linkedin profile and the conversations we've had
Speaker:you've certainly found a way to scratch You
Speaker:know the the creative itch, you know from
Speaker:photography through Uh teaching so you've been caught
Speaker:entrepreneurial as well found in many ventures Um,
Speaker:you've even got a roast my kickstarter Um,
Speaker:I think that you do as well So,
Speaker:you know, there's there's lots of joy in
Speaker:there outside of the you know, they're nuts
Speaker:and bolts of of engineering um you know
Speaker:how much Of of what drives you is
Speaker:now is the is the joy of making
Speaker:something new and how much Kind of satisfaction
Speaker:how much is the satisfaction of watching it
Speaker:in the wild doing its job in someone's
Speaker:home?
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's what it's all about
Speaker:really.
Speaker:I mean I mean you could sit home
Speaker:making stuff for yourself, which I do I
Speaker:have sort of hobbies where I just make
Speaker:stuff my own enjoyment, but then When you
Speaker:make something that scales and you see it
Speaker:people using it.
Speaker:Um, and with my with my kickstarter projects
Speaker:i've had I think I did I added
Speaker:at once it's probably about 70 or 80
Speaker:countries and around the world where my Products
Speaker:have gone to and it's tens of thousands
Speaker:of people and the idea that my something
Speaker:I made Is now in someone's home in
Speaker:Wherever South America, Singapore, all of this and
Speaker:I love that feeling of making something that
Speaker:people Enjoy or use or just get something
Speaker:out of and I think it's the Turning
Speaker:it to a business is kind of almost
Speaker:Sometimes say i'm a bit of a reluctant
Speaker:entrepreneur like the stuff like accounting and all
Speaker:that stuff not going to say that's the
Speaker:most fun, but there's a point where If
Speaker:you want to scale and get the product
Speaker:into more people's hands you have to then
Speaker:become an entrepreneur and think more about the
Speaker:business and commercials and Legals and stuff like
Speaker:that, which is I guess that's maybe where
Speaker:Particularly on the kickstarter side a lot of
Speaker:people have a kind of hobby project which
Speaker:then Is it is an art project effectively
Speaker:becomes a thing and they make 100 and
Speaker:that's it.
Speaker:I think I enjoy That core creativity, but
Speaker:then taking it to the next level and
Speaker:Making a commercial and selling as many as
Speaker:possible Yeah Now fantastic and where do guinness
Speaker:world records come in And what do they
Speaker:say about the the way you approach challenges
Speaker:and side projects?
Speaker:um, so those Last when are we last
Speaker:two years ago almost exactly two years ago
Speaker:now new year's eve.
Speaker:I had a New year's resolution to break
Speaker:a world record I think I just thought
Speaker:i'd be running my playing card company for
Speaker:a few years and I just kind of
Speaker:thought I was getting a Bit of a
Speaker:rot not doing enough kind of new creative
Speaker:stuff So I thought that would be something
Speaker:that just kind of forced me pushed me
Speaker:forward to do something Unusual and at the
Speaker:time had no idea what it was going
Speaker:to be um, and I think It probably
Speaker:talks to my I definitely have a philosophy
Speaker:that Any making stuff is actually quite easy.
Speaker:You can make anything because It's not really
Speaker:about you.
Speaker:I think when especially with my Kickstarter my
Speaker:first kickstarter was a razor and people often
Speaker:ask me.
Speaker:How do you know how to make a
Speaker:razor?
Speaker:And that kind of point was like I
Speaker:didn't before I did you making stuff is
Speaker:about Finding the right people to help you.
Speaker:You can do nothing on your own in
Speaker:sort of especially creative endeavors.
Speaker:You can Sing dance maybe like pile up
Speaker:some rocks, but everything else needs at least
Speaker:tools like other people Like suppliers manufacturers partners
Speaker:like nothing is Achievable on your own when
Speaker:it comes to making stuff.
Speaker:So I think once you realize that some
Speaker:people think Trying to do too much on
Speaker:their own So once you realize you can't
Speaker:do it all in your own you have
Speaker:to find help Then it kind of once
Speaker:you get to that you could pass that
Speaker:hurdle than anything's possible.
Speaker:You can make anything.
Speaker:So With the Guinness World Records, I thought
Speaker:I would Make something that was the superlative
Speaker:whatever it was in the world um, and
Speaker:playing cards was an obvious one because I
Speaker:had a playing card company and I was
Speaker:I still as a side hustle kind of
Speaker:run a playing card company with playing card
Speaker:designs.
Speaker:And so I thought I did a few
Speaker:I can't remember how I got to I
Speaker:guess biggest smallest was sort of the obvious
Speaker:things to look at and smallest I Looked
Speaker:up the record and it was the smallest
Speaker:playing cards previously were I think it was
Speaker:seven millimeters high And I thought that's I
Speaker:thought that sounded beatable.
Speaker:So I started Digging around and figured I
Speaker:could I could beat that Yeah, so that
Speaker:was the first one that I went for
Speaker:And you did it Yep, so the I
Speaker:got down to five so mine are five
Speaker:millimeters higher by three point six wide brilliant
Speaker:Really really difficult to fan out.
Speaker:I imagine I should play around the post
Speaker:They just they tend to just flip upside
Speaker:down and jump around and you can't you
Speaker:can barely yeah too easy as the answer
Speaker:brilliant what's the This is a slight departure
Speaker:from my questions here, but what's what's your
Speaker:best selling design of playing cards?
Speaker:It's actually right here.
Speaker:It's this one So these square Yeah, so
Speaker:it's called the one deck and these are
Speaker:So they're regular cards.
Speaker:So this is an ace with the aces
Speaker:on but then they also have Chess pieces
Speaker:in the middle.
Speaker:Oh cool and dominoes as well.
Speaker:So basically you could play lots of games
Speaker:So the idea is they were Um a
Speaker:multi-game deck so you can take travel
Speaker:and these these are also smaller than even
Speaker:narrower as well as being square they're narrower
Speaker:so actually My first deck was that size
Speaker:and these were Mini ones that size.
Speaker:Okay, so the ultimate travel deck.
Speaker:Yeah was and those yeah that did A
Speaker:hundred thousand pounds this on kicks off to
Speaker:this this second deck.
Speaker:Wow So that's proved pretty popular and they
Speaker:stay still yeah still selling them today Fantastic.
Speaker:Yeah, so, you know Just proof that you
Speaker:know your designs don't need to be kind
Speaker:of overly complicated to solve a You know
Speaker:a simple kind of desire and need a
Speaker:problem there I'm guessing relatively, you know affordable
Speaker:to produce as well.
Speaker:Um, yeah, I mean that's One beauty of
Speaker:playing cards is there I mean effectively Your
Speaker:pdfs is your output you find a playing
Speaker:card manufacturer.
Speaker:Yeah, send the bdfs and that's that's it
Speaker:So it's a question of finding the right
Speaker:supplier and you're right.
Speaker:They're a volume.
Speaker:They're pretty cheap.
Speaker:So margins are good Um, so it's just
Speaker:uh, I kind of I guess deliberately constrained
Speaker:that design and manufacturing problem because I didn't
Speaker:Want to try and create the next kind
Speaker:of Really expensive sort of electro mechanical device
Speaker:that that wasn't kind of where I was
Speaker:at in my life Again, it's the balance
Speaker:of finding the right thing for you at
Speaker:the time No, fantastic.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:So so you've run um You know 10
Speaker:I think 10 kickstarter campaigns you've raised over
Speaker:300 000 pounds of your own through that
Speaker:You know, um, what was going through your
Speaker:mind the first time you you know, you
Speaker:hit launch Um, and and you asked the
Speaker:internet to to back your idea with real
Speaker:money uh Pretty nerve-wracking such might have
Speaker:weirdly my first one was probably the hardest.
Speaker:So it was my Highest target.
Speaker:So my first one was a razor basically
Speaker:a men's razor Um, so that needed it
Speaker:was made from die cast Metal so needed
Speaker:tooling which was quite expensive.
Speaker:So I think if I remember rightly Maybe
Speaker:19 000 pounds was my target Actually, it's
Speaker:now pretty much 10 times what my playing
Speaker:card Target would be so It's always harder
Speaker:on kickstarter to hit a bigger target and
Speaker:especially for your first ever project So it
Speaker:was a tough it was tough and I
Speaker:I think very nearly didn't make it.
Speaker:I It was kind of tracking along slowly.
Speaker:Um, um Like everyone will always say on
Speaker:kickstarter You need to have a strong first
Speaker:day ideally, but hit your target in hours
Speaker:If not a day the first day and
Speaker:I did definitely didn't do that and kind
Speaker:of battled through slowly raising the money and
Speaker:only Perhaps a few days before the end
Speaker:actually hit 100.
Speaker:So it was pretty nerve-wracking and very
Speaker:emotional Kind of roller coaster.
Speaker:It was a few a couple of articles
Speaker:online kind of men's sort of like tech
Speaker:not tech but more gadgety like stuff blogs
Speaker:published about it and Those there's actually you
Speaker:can see on my Trajectory of the project
Speaker:one of them.
Speaker:I woke up one morning and it Really
Speaker:took off and that's what that's what ticked
Speaker:me over a hundred percent.
Speaker:So it was definitely definitely touch or go
Speaker:and if I Had not succeeded then I
Speaker:probably wouldn't have done another one.
Speaker:So I think my life again Talking about
Speaker:pivotal moments that would have been very different
Speaker:did that um You know the the stress
Speaker:of getting to Kind of a hundred percent
Speaker:and then some you know Did did that
Speaker:not make you?
Speaker:Kind of think twice about doing another one
Speaker:or was the rest of the journey quite
Speaker:quite quite good Uh, it probably did maybe
Speaker:see I guess it perhaps made me Tone
Speaker:down my ambition for the actual product because
Speaker:like I say that what the first one
Speaker:had quite a lot of upfront costs that
Speaker:were kind of necessary the tooling and fixed
Speaker:costs which so my Which is partly why
Speaker:I went to playing cards.
Speaker:I did a couple in between where I
Speaker:just had lower fixed costs So I needed
Speaker:a smaller target and it would just easier
Speaker:to launch um and kind of Sort of
Speaker:almost annoyingly that the margin is much better
Speaker:on the playing cards And it's not there's
Speaker:not necessarily a correlation between the complexity and
Speaker:how successful is Kind of be as a
Speaker:business or a product.
Speaker:So it's like picking the right picking your
Speaker:battles.
Speaker:I suppose yeah, no, absolutely you um Going
Speaker:going further back in your career, you know,
Speaker:you uh, you're a global player like thermo
Speaker:fisher Um, and then you moved into startups
Speaker:and digital products.
Speaker:What what prompted that move?
Speaker:Away from the corporate into you know, the
Speaker:unknown the risky kind of world startups I
Speaker:suppose it was I was yeah living in
Speaker:cambridge at the time working for thermo fisher
Speaker:and I actually did uh an open university
Speaker:Uh course on design and innovation which was
Speaker:two years part-time I think it was
Speaker:a diploma or something.
Speaker:It's like the equivalent of kind of first
Speaker:year graduate And I think that was what
Speaker:really made me start to get more into
Speaker:the design side Of of products and I
Speaker:was At the time I probably didn't know
Speaker:what a product manager was and it was
Speaker:I was starting to work So actually that
Speaker:company actually started working on the factory floor
Speaker:assembling stuff And then kind of worked my
Speaker:way up into I ended up in the
Speaker:technical support team where I was writing technical
Speaker:documentation manuals for service engineers I was going
Speaker:around the world training service engineers to fix
Speaker:the stuff that we made and I think
Speaker:I started thinking about All the things you
Speaker:deal with as a service engineer.
Speaker:We're all kind of caused by design choices
Speaker:that someone made
