Daydreaming and Other Unconventional Career Lessons with Jude Pullen

Chris Whyte (: 00:01

Jude, welcome to the podcast. Pleasure to have you. It feels like it's been a long time coming after we met at a Blue Garage event, we, earlier in the year, and then we've had a few conversations since.

JudePullen.com (: 00:02

there. Pleasure to be here Chris.

JudePullen.com (: 00:13

Exactly. And for anyone who doesn't know, Blue Garage is not as bad as it sounds. It's just a, it's a meetup for technologists, creatives, and I guess entrepreneurs, isn't it, in Southside of London.

Chris Whyte (: 00:20

You

Chris Whyte (: 00:27

Yeah, Lewisham. So yeah, I've had the pleasure of spending quite a bit of time with with one of the owners and founders. Michael down there. He was on the podcast a few months ago as well. So yeah, like we work but with massive tools and a great community. So great to get to have that. So anyway, there's the context for how we met and I'm very much looking forward to diving into this. So I'm going to do my my best to

Give you a little bit of an intro and then you can correct me where I inevitably get it wrong. But and then we'll talk about, we'll just dive in. So, so Jude Pullen, you're a creative technologist and physical prototype with a career that spans corporate R &D, invention, open source design and storytelling. You've worked at Dyson, helping, you've helped to bring game changer products to market at a place like Sugru and you've freelanced for many years across different industries, building your reputation as someone who can connect technology with imagination.

and ideas with action. These days, you're splitting your time between being a technologist in residence at the RCA and working with Lego as a technology scout and partnering manager, exploring what's next at the intersection of tech, creativity, and play. One thing that really stood out from our previous calls and to prepare for this, Jude, is that you've never really tried to fit into a conventional box. Your projects are as diverse as you're thinking, whether...

It's poetic air quality monitors, mentoring emerging creatives or challenging the idea that job titles should define your value. So, yeah, very much looking forward to diving into this. Before I move on, there anything that you would add to to that kind of elevator pitch for Jude Pullen?

JudePullen.com (: 02:11

No, only only I hope this isn't getting too meta or too sort of geeky. But actually, I hope you don't mind me revealing that you you'd alluded to using chat GPT to help you along. Now, that isn't me being snarky. What I find fascinating about that is that it's often a reminder of I am what other people think I am. And that now includes GPT and the internet.

Chris Whyte (: 02:34

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 02:35

whatever comes up in a ranking. So I think we can maybe get into that because I find that strangely I would say about a third of my work is completely non-public, massively under NDA, and for example I can say I did some work for Bentley and that's all I can tell you. Do you know what mean? So you won't get in my bio, has done a really interesting xyz.

Chris Whyte (: 02:54

Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 03:02

because I just can't talk about it. But what I find is that, to your point, what I love about my job, and in many ways, I give huge credit to all the formative experiences of wonderful companies I've worked with, is that it's almost a bit like a sort of compound interest. I feel like the more experiences I have that are diverse, working with great people in different countries, cultures, it just feels like you almost have this agility, a bit like the old phrase of journeyman.

you can be parachuted into something and somehow be able to add credible value and be tangible whilst you do it at the same time. So I think we're almost in a bit of a golden age, dare I say, of sort of creativity, even though I think there's lots of turbulence at the minute and people are sort of stressing out about all sorts of things. And I'm not saying I'm immune to those things, but, you know, genuinely when you zoom out, it's remarkable when you look at some of the things that

we have at our disposal today that just make design an incredibly exciting career.

Chris Whyte (: 04:06

Massively, I'm really looking forward to getting stuck in. And yeah, thanks for lifting the curtain on my prep as well with the V.I.

JudePullen.com (: 04:14

Well, we're among friends here and I just mean, I use it as well. And that's the discipline. feel, know, Brian Eno, I think has what I think will be an immortal quotes that he was talking about synthesizers and he said that skill is rapidly being replaced with judgment. And I feel that's what you've still delivered in looking at chat GPT. You didn't just come paste it.

you edited in, finessed it with me. And that's exactly what I think needs to happen, is we need to have that loop still intact in the process. Otherwise, yeah, the first draft wasn't quite there, was it? But that's why I'm really happy with the second one.

Chris Whyte (: 04:46

Massively,

Chris Whyte (: 04:53

No, yeah. It's really interesting because it's, you know, I'm forever playing with the tool. You know, going to like you say, we are getting a bit meta here. But you know, it's like you say, if it's not on the internet, it's not going to find it. But actually, what I do is the conversations that I have, the notes that I take, if it's recorded, if it's if we've got an AI note taker, those will then be used to kind of

put together kind of the notes as well and the guides just it's just incredible really when you think about it kind of five years ago that there was nothing really not in the public domain anyway that could just get you to those key points. And yeah, but it's like just if you had an assistant doing that for you, you know, you'd have to give it feedback, give them give them feedback to and go back and forth and collaborate on before you get the result that you like.

JudePullen.com (: 05:29

you

JudePullen.com (: 05:51

completely.

Chris Whyte (: 05:51

Chat GPT, other AI tools are available is exactly the same. You've got to work with it, not just take the first thing it spits out. anyway, AI ticked. We can do that. We've covered that off. So let's move on. I'm sure it will come back round in the end. We'll go full circle. So we're going to dive into, on this episode, how you've

JudePullen.com (: 06:06

I was just like worried about the users just not another AI talk. That's it. I'm dropping off.

Chris Whyte (: 06:20

built a deliberately unconventional design career. You've already kind of alluded to that. Why you believe the forever job is outdated and how portfolio careers can unlock creative freedom, which has been something I've spoken to quite a lot of my guests and contacts in industry about recently actually is that portfolio career sounds amazing. So the value of daydreaming down downtime and soft skills in real innovation. So I'm very looking forward to that bit.

the evolution of your open source air quality project, the Canary, and how its meaning changed with the world around it. There you go. For anyone watching, there's a sneak preview. And reflections on hiring, mentoring, and how building a fulfilling life and design without burning out or sunning out. So yeah, let's dive in, shall we? So as with...

JudePullen.com (: 07:14

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 07:17

Every episode since we renamed, we always start with why design? So where did it all begin? From your engineering roots to BBC broadcasts, it's not been linear, but what first got you excited about design and technology?

JudePullen.com (: 07:29

Certainly not.

It's funny that I've really had a very messy career into this and I, you know, without getting sort of too much into my past, basically my parents were always struggling entrepreneurs and they'd run all sorts of businesses and but they actually came from an arts background. And so I think I was somewhat chastened by that.

that when I was presented at university, sorry, at A level, getting ready for university with being good at science and being good at art, my careers advisor was like, well, if you're lucky enough to be smart enough to be good at science, you should go do that. And I sort of, you know, it's not that I blame the careers advisor. I think that was completely prevalent logic back in the day.

But there wasn't, dare I say it sounds really crazy to say it these days, but there wasn't Johnny Ive in, you know, sort of regular circulation. There wasn't discussions about the importance of design by Steve Jobs or, you know, all these other people. And so genuinely, I didn't really know what a designer was. It felt like someone who did really good sketches. I'm not actually a particularly good sketcher, ironically coming from artistic parents. And so, you know, I used to do

taught myself ceramics in my lunchtime whilst I was at A level doing sciences, chemistry, maths, physics. And what's weird about that when I look back is that, again, I think we can get into education later on, but it was very telling that actually sciences and arts happened at the same time. Because of course, why would why would anyone do those two together? So

JudePullen.com (: 09:15

I think that's almost sort of for me, you my career has almost been a sort of soft rebellion against that. And yeah, I don't think it's anything new, because as soon as anyone wheels out, you know, DaVinci, then of course we go, yes, science, design, engineering, of course it should all live together. And then of course we don't do it. And so I feel like my career is sort of a, not in any way trying to sort of believe that I would emulate DaVinci, but.

Chris Whyte (: 09:33

You

JudePullen.com (: 09:45

I sort of feel the polymath approach is something that just for me just keeps getting better with every year that I keep trying to do it. The more diverse things I work on, whether it's at the minute, I almost don't want to say AI because it seems such a turnoff, but I am working with like Nvidia through RS group. But then I'm also sort of looking at sort of projects that would be interesting for kids in education.

There's some medical device design, there's some shipping and freight logistics, there's some stuff to do with microfluidics. It's incredibly broad, but what I find is often these things coalesce and overlap in really complimentary ways. And I think that for me is the sort of secret source of when you have a nice moment when someone says, I'm so glad you came to the workshop or you're involved in this sprint. How do you know all that sort of stuff? And you go,

It's not IQ, it's just I happened to have done something a couple of years ago and I was just able to bring that knowledge and also network. Sometimes it is that thing that's, I get a lot of people saying, do you know someone who can do this? And you're like, wait a minute, if I don't know, I'll know someone who does. And it really is like, now it's almost one or two intros away and we're there. We've got like world-class talent.

Chris Whyte (: 11:08

We had a bit of fun years ago at my last company. Someone had mentioned the six degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon. That was a thing that was going around probably about seven, eight years ago. And at the time, I wanted to test it out because at the time I was working with a company that made props for big movies like James Bond and Star Wars films based at Pinewood Studios. Absolutely awesome client. Ended up in tears because they went by borrowing us a lot of money.

JudePullen.com (: 11:16

Big fan of that.

JudePullen.com (: 11:30

Hmm.

Chris Whyte (: 11:37

We had a lot of fun in the meantime, but I called my contact there because I said to the guys in room, I reckon I reckon there's two degrees between me and Kevin Bacon. lo and behold, he'd been into their studios a week or two before doing some stop motion or some kind of 3D kind of work to get him into a CGI picture that they could scan.

You're never far away.

JudePullen.com (: 12:07

And I think that that's almost it is I think there's something nice about the career that I'm in is that you and you must relate to this as well of just almost having the sort of brass neck cheek to just say, Hey, do you know, do you know someone who can do this? We're trying to do a thing. And then, you know, I think how many careers, know, if I was in, I don't know, you know, banking, would I be able to phone up and say,

Chris Whyte (: 12:19

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 12:32

you know anyone who does anything to do with radiation detectors? I'm working on a side hustle to do with this, know, on anti-terrorism and they'll be like yeah yeah sure give me a minute. No it's it's a very it's I'm sure it's a very closed you know unique group of people but it doesn't operate in this sort of I think I've sort of I don't know whether this is a term I want to necessarily stand by but I've sort of I've described it as sort of I like being intellectually promiscuous.

Chris Whyte (: 12:45

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 13:01

if that makes sense. I'm completely very happily married man just before anyone's drawing any conclusions. But I sort of feel like, you know, this idea that we work for a company and somehow we've got to stay married or wedded to that brand, that ideology, that methodology. Hell no.

Chris Whyte (: 13:23

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we yeah, we kind of diving into some of the topics that I've written down. So we might have to throw the the list out of the window. No, it's it's good. I can just take it off as we go. All right, covered that was next. But no, I love it. Kind of intellectually promiscuous. So maybe you could break that down then. So I'm thinking curiosity, asking lots of questions, trying to figure stuff out. But what would your kind of definition that be?

JudePullen.com (: 13:30

Yeah, sorry. It's a rambling conversation. Destroying your...

Keep it your toes.

JudePullen.com (: 13:52

I one of the things, and I know this is a cliched reference, but maybe it's appropriate that the yin and yang symbol is often just simplistically referred to as the black and the white half. But where it gets interesting is that within that half, you've got the dot, right? And the dot is where you had to give up and let something die within you in order for the other thing to exist.

And I'm being slightly melodramatic or theatrical by saying, let something die. actually, you know, I mean, this isn't a discussion about my personal relationship, but I kind of feel there's been some really hard discussions with my wife being from Hong Kong about stuff that I just didn't appreciate, didn't understand. And I've sort of had to let a part of me be erased to then rebuild something.

And so even within myself, my own sense of identity has shifted dramatically through the people I've lived with. But on a more, I don't want to say trivial, but on a more transactional level of my work, there's still the same part of that. If I work with a company like Lego, I can assure you it leaves an indelible mark on your concept of parenting. I mean, I just had a kid as I took the job.

you know, and I remember being like slightly teased by one of the, for context female designers, who was a bit older and she just overheard me and another male colleague talking about the best time to change nappies and sleep cycles. And she's like, I need to record this. This, this just never would have happened years ago. But, but I think that's almost what's exciting is I feel Lego for me was

Chris Whyte (: 15:39

Hehehehehe

JudePullen.com (: 15:47

just a really great place for me to meet people with similar curiosity and willingness to sort of think differently and prototype. think that's one of the, know, Lego is almost the quintessential prototyping material for anyone who hasn't got a glue gun and cardboard, right? you know, that's the thing. feel finding, they say find your tribe, but I think my career has been finding multiple tribes.

Chris Whyte (: 16:03

Absolutely, yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 16:16

that I enjoy working with and some of those what the beauty of it is I almost come back to them almost having metaphorically left their village and come back with new technology, new ideas and new equipment. And so it's, it's almost rather lovely actually to drop in on, you know, Lego as a freelancer rather than just an employee or, you know, sort of who knows maybe one day I'll come back to Dyson, you know, for a sort of thing. so I think there's something almost quite

exciting about wondering what this might be in like in 10, 20 years.

Chris Whyte (: 16:52

Yeah, absolutely. I really like that. Just trying to take something or kind of learn or kind of absorb from those interactions, those experiences that you have. You mentioned right at the beginning that you've had such a diverse kind of career so far and in certainly in terms of the products and the challenges and the teams that you've worked with. Where do you think the common thread there in terms of, you know, working on a

a big piece of machinery to design an experience for Lego. is the kind of, I don't know, is there a kind of something that enables you to offer value and be useful in those contexts? Because it's not traditional. It usually, from my perspective, I'm taking briefs from clients on trying to hire a middleweight designer. They must have come from one of our competitors or they must have come from this similar industry.

JudePullen.com (: 17:27

Mm.

Chris Whyte (: 17:50

We can't possibly get someone from automotive, for instance.

JudePullen.com (: 17:54

Totally. mean, I feel like there's one sort of phrase that I guess I'm trying to coin for myself, which is on my website, because obviously the whole point is you try and give thought to these things. there's a bit of premeditation of that. use the phrase, the human story in tech. So what I mean by that is quite often as a creative technologist, I get hired because a technologist is what is on the budget on the project list. But

really my value comes from understanding the humanity of the technology. to be completely honest, not to talk myself out of a job or get a kick in the shins from Nvidia, but you know, I'm sitting next to for those listening, I'm sitting next to one of their Jetson, you know, sort of nano series of hardware. I'm not that interested in the hardware. I mean, I'm interested in a prosaic level of, know, what's the heat sink like and how much power does it draw and da da da.

And we can get into how many sort of qubits and how powerful the processing capability is and how much parallelism and I can keep using jargon. But really I'm like, should we make this thing? And what's the externalities of switching this thing on? Are we gonna live to regret it? That sort of stuff keeps my creativity going much, much longer than when, I mean, we could probably do exactly the same thing on a slightly souped up raspberry pie.

or I could get something from another competitor from Intel. So the point is the technology is a vehicle for me to explore humanity. And in terms of like, you know, dare I say where I add value to a company, probably wouldn't put this on my website because context is everything. And I think that's why it's nice to actually do podcasts. So hopefully you won't just slice a 10 second sound bite of this. But yeah, exactly. That's exactly my point. Context is everything and

Chris Whyte (: 19:41

this bit no context.

JudePullen.com (: 19:47

we can get into that with sort of news and all these sorts of things. But I sort of describe it as I follow the fear. Some people say follow the money. I follow fear. So fear for me at the minute is uncertainty around AI, uncertainty around sustainability and circularity and all that sort of stuff. You know, a light sprinkling of, you know, political uncertainty, you know, Donald Trump mayhem. But I wouldn't say that's actually

I wouldn't say you should over-focus on that. But I'd say the other one actually is diversity and inclusivity. And I don't mean that in the sort of tick box exercise. I mean that in the most joyful sense of how can you put an eclectic team together? Because for anyone who's read sort of Black Swan or anything, and sort of the concepts around sort of anti-fragility,

I think if you've got a monoculture and you wake up one day wondering why you're not relevant anymore, you're like, probably the monoculture, wasn't it? You know, and I've spoken to investment bankers about, actually, you've got good diversity of race, but you haven't got good diversity of gender. And yet, out there in the market, you've got a lot of women

who are probably gonna become much more financially successful, much more educated. I I think it was literally only a year or two ago that the only A level that boys were still better than girls at was maths. And that title has now fallen. So women are now better at everything, academically speaking. So again, the last bastion of sort of male superiority just fell, in which case I'm like, bring on the new wave of

Chris Whyte (: 21:29

Ready. Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 21:43

female investors, female, you know, sort of financially savvy people. So I think that's what I mean by the sort of being open-minded is I just like swimming where people aren't paying attention or they're finding it stressful because it's that thing of as soon as you start not worrying about it and starting to sort of get into it, that's where it gets interesting. And I think to sort of probably preempt the question, which may be the listeners are thinking of, well, how do you do that?

That's why I put so much emphasizing on prototyping, because as soon as you start actually purchasing, let's say one of these Nvidia things, it ceases to become this ephemeral hype thing. And you start to see its massive limitations, but you also start to see its tremendous potential in the other sort of directions as well.

And also you start to realize where the group think is and where you can differentiate yourself. But you don't see that if you just keep creating slide decks and quarterly reports, do you?

Chris Whyte (: 22:48

Absolutely. No, fascinating. want to dive in on the just quickly on the fear side and just get context. So you chase in fear, you chasing your fear or you chase in fear of your kind of the people you're working with.

JudePullen.com (: 22:55

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 23:04

yeah, I I'm not I'm not a messiah. I mean, you know, I haven't I haven't figured out when I say like, I'm chasing the, the DEI fear I mean, I'm neurodiverse and mixed race. So I'm aware I present as white. But my heritage and my identity still is a little more multifaceted than that. And also raising a mixed race kid is something that preoccupies me deeply. And so, yeah, if you ask me, you know,

What does it mean when Trump cancels DEI stuff? What does it mean when we have different politics in the EU which are getting more extreme? Those things, sounds like you could say, well, what's that got to do with business? And you're like, well, know, politics permeate everything. And so I feel like it's a weird thing to be hired for a project that is, you know, maybe to look at a...

you know, a particular piece of hardware or a particular sort of user experience. But it's so common the amount of times I go into it and go, this isn't the problem. No, it's a human problem that's that we're gonna have to get into and discuss. So I think that that only works if I've built the trust with the company. And I would almost say, it's not that the first project with them is a sort of fluffy project of no substance, not at all. It's sometimes quite

ironically quite successful and quite straightforward because there's a clear brief and a clear goal quite often. But then it's through the process of getting to know them that you almost end up uncovering the more interesting follow-up project, which is, you know, I mean, to give a case in point, we started off looking at air quality monitors. And for those of you who are listening, we've basically got a Raspberry Pi inside a box with a screen.

and then a bunch of different air quality monitoring technology, which basically pull apart like little Lego bricks on a din rail. And it means I can put everything from radiation detectors through to VOC, NOX, particulate CO2. But that was all really good. The engineers loved that. That was terrific. But we realized that most people, as I've just reeled off all those acronyms, go, what the hell was that? know, NOX? that?

JudePullen.com (: 25:27

PM, know, PM 2.5. Why is PM 1.0 not any good? And so that's why we sort of ended up making this little good air canary, which again, for those listening, is basically a little automata bird which falls off its perch based on how bad the air quality is. And for anyone old enough in this to know the Monty Python dead parrot sketch, there's a few little in jokes there as well.

So, but that for me is I feel what's, you know, that for me has a really lovely duality of that the the engineers on boarded to understand that I had used really, really good industry standard technology, the fact I've got a chemistry background adds more credibility to that narrative. Again, I should point out I'm always working with experts and credit to them for their assistance on this. But then they ended up finding the canary.

really nice metaphor because I'd sort of essentially earned their trust with knowing the science. Conversely, people who first onboarded with the Canary, who would have never looked at a project about PM 2.5 and why that's important, enjoyed the metaphor, enjoyed the story, and then gently put a toe in the water and realized that there's this whole world of sensing technology, which has had this incredible price crash over the last five years, which is why that project exists.

is because that stuff would have cost tens of thousands of pounds. And now it was in the sort of order of, you know, a couple of dollars all the way through to sort of tens of dollars. So, you know, I don't think I'm being indiscreet here and RS wouldn't mind. But obviously RS is in the business of selling said components. So that's the reason they fund me to a build a project, but also to sort of inform strategy and direction on what

IoT sensors mean what edge computing and sensing technologies mean and instead of just saying the environment's important, well, these sensors are probably playing a role in those environments. So how do we also connect with startups and companies wanting to sort of explore the big data of environmental awareness? So for me, you know, there's a phrase I picked up from being at the Royal College of Art called praxis.

JudePullen.com (: 27:54

which is almost a sort of slight portmanteau of, you know, the practical side of theory. So it's saying that if you do something practical, that then goes on to inform your theory in a more nuanced way. And I realize in hindsight, that's actually what I've been doing all these years is practice. You know, I don't have an opinion on something until I've experienced it with other people.

because otherwise that's just theory, that's just conjecture. So I realize I'm terrible academic, I'm probably going to struggle to write any white papers and it's why I intelligently realize I partner with other wonderful writers and scholars at the Royal College of Art and we're writing a paper together with someone, Luke at the minute, and I'm so glad and I've said this completely upfront that it just yeah it blows me away.

Chris Whyte (: 28:27

Massively,

JudePullen.com (: 28:49

how good it is to have a dedicated expert. yeah, as much as I'm, you know, singing my own praises, but also hopefully inspiring others about this sort of polymath style of working, I also have massive humility and respect for when you absolutely need a bona fide expert who's got 20 years in the game. It's the synergy of the two that is exciting. So it's not my way is better than your way.

It's the... Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 29:20

It's about having the remit to ask those questions that maybe an expert might not because they already know the answers. And sometimes it's the process of going through the question and answer and exploring that, like you said earlier, other use cases come about or other problems come out that they need solving that may not have

been uncovered had a more traditional kind of get the expert in the white coat in to sort it out you know so

JudePullen.com (: 29:52

Mm.

JudePullen.com (: 29:59

Totally. I guess maybe the only other point I'd add to that is again, you know, I've sort of alluded to my enjoyment of broadening the scope of the term DEI. But I think increasingly I make the point that sort of age is a really interesting thing to play with. And at Sugru, that was the first time I really had agency over my team in that Dice and I'd been a manager of a couple of people, but you're still very much in that culture. Whereas Sugru I had...

carte blanche to build the team from scratch. And I love the fact that our age range was from 19 years old interns all the way to hope they don't mind 55 year olds, absolute veterans of the chemical industry, and everything in between. And that was the point is that, you know, we had people from different culture, different educational backgrounds, different, to call it what it is different class backgrounds.

And that for me is what made the pairing really, really exciting. And I think one of the things that often doesn't get talked about is that people sort of love to pay lip service to the idea that diversity is somehow utopian and easily. And I'll be completely honest, it's really bloody hard to get two people who you can see, to my point about the yin and yang, if they can have those bits die and be rebuilt,

they're gonna be tremendous as a team. But at the minute, they're locking horns and they're hating being in the same project as each other. And, you I'm not gonna name names, because that'd be a bit awkward. But all I can say is that every single time I was able to sort of coach and get people to see that benefit in other and the synergy, and they were just incredible at the end of it. And that's what gives me the buzz.

is seeing that sort of unlikely pairing suddenly become absolutely golden and way better than if it just been homogenous. So that's what I sort of feel I've done as a manager and I try to sort of emulate, obviously more humbly because I'm not always the leader with clients at all. But I think I sort of bring that as an ethos and as a value to the room. And so if that's...

JudePullen.com (: 32:23

If that's welcomed, then we get on like a house on fire.

Chris Whyte (: 32:27

Massively, but it's quite a big hurdle to get over those when you've got those two very competing viewpoints or personalities or profiles or whatever it is. getting each party to give something up so that the combined hold is much, much, greater. We probably haven't got time to go into a masterclass on this, but is there a particular

JudePullen.com (: 32:46

Hmm.

Chris Whyte (: 32:57

instance or, know, you know, just something that stands out as the aha moment for when you when you kind of got that and that's that that's the thing that helps me unlock that helps them helps those two people see eye to eye.

JudePullen.com (: 33:13

Yeah, I think most people are, and that's why I sort come back to the fear, I think most people in their jobs in the early stage of their career, they're really worried about the fact they don't, they know they're stupid. They don't know enough to be, you know, a master. The weird kicker with that is on the other side of when you get people who are very seasoned, they know they are a master, but they're a master of something which is maybe waning.

and maybe on the way out. And so there's that uncomfortable feeling of, did a, it's strange, I did a LinkedIn post, you might have seen it, which, it sort of went better than I expected. I sort of quoted LCD sound system of one of their lyrics of, I'm losing my edge to better looking people with better ideas who are actually really nice people. And I've always...

Chris Whyte (: 34:06

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 34:08

I've always loved the irony of that. That was one of their debut tracks, which of course, like when you think about it, why would you write a debut track when you're beginning? I kind of, I've internalized that as that's what some people call the beginner mindset is just going every so often. How do I reinvent not just myself, but the network that I'm connected to the knowledge basis that I hold to be true, you know? And so it's that.

You know, weirdly, I would say about a third of my time, which is a huge luxury having worked in a company and I realize how lucky I am with this whenever you say it out loud, but probably a third of my time is actually thinking and exploring and reading and talking to people and processing ideas and challenging ideas. And, you know, I remember being at Lego with one of the engineers and he said, you know, what's really lucky about you.

you actually get to read this and he picked up a copy of Wired and he said, I'm too busy to read this. And that galls me to paraphrase, you know, he didn't use those terms, but that's what I think is sometimes the really hard thing about being in a, really busy environment is busy is a pressure in and of itself. And I think one of the things to maybe finally answer that question of yours is

I tried as a manager to actually create a lot of safe spaces that people could, you know, break bread, get to know each other in a sort of casual social way. But then I think we also used to have meetings every month where we would basically sort of air our dirty laundry and say what we're really struggling with and be honest about the fear. And of course the first, you know, sort of five meetings, everyone's still very guarded.

And then you realize it starts to open up and you start to cut through the fears that people have. And they sort of say, well, yeah, I'll be honest with you. I'm finding it hard to work with this person. then, you know, they're always very like, no offense, but we just keep contradicting each other. And then it's really lovely actually, as a manager to step back and watch other people say, I think maybe you do it this way and you'll get the best out of them. And I realized how...

JudePullen.com (: 36:28

Rare it is, and I feel as a manager, I was just doing things very intuitively, but I sort of feel you end up post-rationalizing it. And I don't know whether you find this, but I suspect a lot of the books you read of like business advice or sort of, think they're written post. I don't think people write those books going, I think this is how the world should work. I think they go out there and they realize something and then they...

know, intellectualize it afterwards. Maybe that sounds obvious to you and everyone listening, but I felt that penione dropped recently. you know, that the praxis thing, you know, that actually being a manager means you probably end up being a trying to write about what is good management, and that actually makes you a better manager still, because you've challenged your assumptions and methods. So yeah, I think

Chris Whyte (: 36:56

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 37:08

Mmm.

Chris Whyte (: 37:20

Mm.

JudePullen.com (: 37:24

To summarize, that's what I think is sort of an interesting thing is safe spaces. And also I think the best thing you can do as a sort of manager really is almost be the most vulnerable person. That doesn't mean weak. That doesn't mean indecisive. It means willing to say this is where we have a problem. And I think that engenders more trust and it sort of snowballs.

But yeah, very much an expectation of one of my old bosses used to say, I'd really appreciate if you came to the table with the problem and a few solutions that might work, and then we can have a discussion. Whereas if you just slam a problem on the table, it's all on me to do the work. I think that was early in my career and it really hit home at Dyson. And I think I sort of vowed never to do that.

Chris Whyte (: 38:11

Yeah, you don't get to learn anything if I solve it. Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 38:24

And I think it's always sort of held me in good stead to be like, I don't have to have the winning idea, but just put in a few cards on the table is respect to the person you are asking for help, you know.

Chris Whyte (: 38:40

Yeah, I think that the vulnerability thing is, you know, it's about being open and being a being approachable as well. Because if you show that you're vulnerable and essentially that you're human, you have problems and you don't know the answer to everything. I think in my experience, people are more likely to want to work with you and respect you and give you give you time, whether that's as a manager or as a colleague or business owner or whatever.

People like to be helpful. So if you're asking for help, whether that be from a position of authority or as an employee, it's all good. It all leads to good outcomes, I feel.

JudePullen.com (: 39:10

Mm.

JudePullen.com (: 39:21

Absolutely. mean, I think that's sort of, you know, strangely one of the reasons, you I'm at pains to sort of clarify for students that yes, I'm, you know, capable for those watching, I make credible 3D printed prototypes that are of a good standard, let's just, let's just say. But the reason I teach cardboard modeling is because, know, case in point, this was something I was working on with Nvidia.

And it doesn't matter guessing what it is or it isn't. But, you know, the fact that even certain things have just been sort of ripped out and done differently and stuck back on, you know, that's entirely the point. And I find that what's good about Cardboard is that no one believes that's a finished thing. And so no one's afraid of killing your darlings. So, you know, if you go, you're like, yeah, this is half-baked, we're just working through some ideas on the ergonomics or what the user case should be. What do you think?

Chris Whyte (: 39:59

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 40:11

Hmm.

JudePullen.com (: 40:21

they'll be only too happy to dive in there. Whereas if you present them something like this, 3D thing, 3D printed thing with labels on and the buttons have a name, it's too precious. People clam up or they sort of despair and go, I can't, I can't bring myself to, there's a hundred things wrong with this. But then, but then that's your fault for coming to them when you're almost at the finish line. So, so I'd say a huge amount of work.

Chris Whyte (: 40:30

too precious, isn't it? Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 40:40

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 40:48

I do and this is not to sort of imply that I breach NDA or confidence, but I have a massive amount of hypothetical questions with people where they won't know what I'm working on, but I'm asking this like technical or ethical or what if type thing and getting feedback and.

Chris Whyte (: 41:08

Hmm.

JudePullen.com (: 41:11

And I think that's such an important part of the prototyping is prototyping ideas. If you can't see the story of where it's going, then probably chances are you're just building stuff to be busy and look like you're doing stuff. And I'm always a little bit wary of that, when, I'm obviously not gonna name teams, but I've met people who furiously are building stuff. And when you say, do you know why you're doing it? There's a sort of like panicked look.

And that either goes one way or the other. Either I go, you're going to be offended and upset. And I try a little bit to sort of massage the egos, of course. Or alternatively, they're like, I'm so glad someone's willing to discuss the truth that we've been stressing about. And I would say, you know, fortunately, seven out of 10 times it goes that way. And that's usually where I end up getting a gig. So, you know, I sort of

It's almost the art of hustling by not hustling. you know? Just just actually having a chat and being like, go on, tell us, tell us what's happening. And yeah, exactly. Have you got a plan? Do you know? Do you know if people really want it?

Chris Whyte (: 42:13

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 42:17

What's the plan?

Chris Whyte (: 42:24

Yeah, well it ties nicely into because you mentioned about it's very easy to be busy and people are too busy to take time to think and plan. You talked when we were preparing for this about daydreaming as design practice. I'm assuming that's kind of built into that, whereas you're spending kind of 30 % of your time thinking about about stuff and in my experience, you know, I

JudePullen.com (: 42:46

Mm.

Chris Whyte (: 42:51

I find it very easy to be busy and I've got, you know, my business is very busy. I've got lots to do, but actually I find that I get more done if I pull myself away for half a day a week or so to daydream and to strategize and put the plan in place because otherwise you just end up doing the same things every day and you get results, but you're not moving forward. If that makes sense. So, but

JudePullen.com (: 43:04

Mm.

JudePullen.com (: 43:12

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 43:19

Totally, yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 43:20

In your kind of experience, know, how do you, you know, what do most people get wrong about productivity and creative work and, you know, what can they do about it?

JudePullen.com (: 43:35

Yeah, I don't know. feel like it's one of those things that is really difficult to give advice when you're further down the road. And I guess that's why people sort of, it's not that I'm harking back to the good old days because the truth is my graduate.

time at Dyson will be completely different if you dropped a graduate in. mean, when I was there, there was like, I think there's like 200 engineers or something and there's absolutely thousands, you know, so, you know, even taking into account the unfortunate losses, it's just a completely different animal. So I don't want to sort of sound like I'm, I'm just harking back to some good old days, but I feel like

it's not a sort of existential anxiety, but realizing your time is precious. And that if you're, if you're challenging, I guess what I'm saying is like, I remember doing sketches at Dyson and I was lucky enough to have a chair by the window and I would lean back and I would look out the window and quite literally daydream. And I kind of was aware that that

posture was gonna, it was gonna rankle some people. And so I guess the safety strategy I did was I would also sort of have a couple of good sketches on my notebook and that would be on my lap or whatever as I was daydreaming. So if someone came up to me and said, you know, like, what are you doing? And I'm like, hey, look, I've just been working on these concepts. I was just spacing out a bit to think about stuff. And I sort of felt like, yeah, that's my safety net. I'll tell them that if they sort of lay into me.

Chris Whyte (: 45:06

You

JudePullen.com (: 45:16

But you know what's interesting about that? No one ever did. I was there four years, regularly staring out the window, sometimes literally with my feet on the desk, which is probably getting a bit too youthful and arrogant. I wouldn't recommend that in hindsight. you know, I kind of, realized actually sometimes you spend all this time building up these ideas of rules and conventions.

And sometimes some of them just aren't there. Or the blunt truth is, the world really doesn't revolve around you. You know what I mean? I know that sounds like a very glib thing to say, but really people are busy worrying about the Q4 report they've got to produce to come over and tell you to stop daydreaming. And ultimately, I think one of the good things about Dyson is, or at least I'll say when I was there, it was quite meritocratic. So if you rocked up to the design meeting and you had three good ideas, I don't think people...

cared too much, you know, how you got there. And I think, you know, dare I say I think, if you proceed with that mentality of the, I think design is quite meritocratic. I think some industries really aren't, you know, I mean, I think, you know, I'd be, I'd probably be terrible at public relations or politics, you know, I mean, I'm just, I'm not a very political animal. I don't think I'm that subtle, or that patient.

I say that actually with quite a lot of, I wouldn't say regret, but just aware that, you know, when I went to Westminster with the design council, I won't speak too much because I don't want to get a kick in the shins, but I just realized I couldn't do this. I would just want to sort of, you know, as Michael Cain would say, and sort of run in and blow the bloody doors off, you know, and like, come on, what are we waiting for? Let's get this going. And you just go, no, that's not how government works. It's...

Chris Whyte (: 47:02

Shushushu.

JudePullen.com (: 47:09

It takes time and it's not, it's actually really childish and naive to sort of think otherwise. And I know that you can say idealism and you know, we need radical breakthroughs, but it's like, no, the reality is some things are going to need like hard won partnerships, long standing strategy and you know, really, really quite a tenacious patience that I see in other people and I go, that doesn't mean that they are work shy. It doesn't mean they're not getting it done.

Chris Whyte (: 47:11

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 47:39

it's just they're working with a very different set of constraints. But I think to be true to myself, that's why I like working at speed with high energy clients who want results fast under pressure. And that's been strangely, I realized that's what's supposed to kill you in TV. And I realized actually I really like it. And I should probably differentiate that.

I'm not in the brunt of what is real stress in TV. So I don't want to sort of downplay that. Some of TV is genuinely horribly stressful. But in terms of like being under pressure to be creative, nah, I can handle that. Do you know what mean? You know, but filming 10 things all at once and getting it to an edit and do that, that's real pressure. But the pressure for me of being creative, I think it's that thing of...

Chris Whyte (: 48:21

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 48:32

after this many years, you sort of go, yeah, I don't know what I'm going to come up with, but nine times out of 10, I do. So I'll just trust the process and not have a panic attack. You know, and I think that's almost the, when I met Dick Powell, I hope that I'm not being name droppy, but I just sort of realized there's just so much calm. they're just really, you you see it. It's like, you know, wherever you sort of see all the sort of.

Chris Whyte (: 48:45

Yeah, absolutely.

JudePullen.com (: 49:03

you know, kung fu movies with the sort of sensei, you just go, yeah, they're always calm. When is there a sort of jittery, crazy twitchy? Yeah. I mean, maybe once in a while, I don't know, Tim, Burton looks a little bit weird, you know, sort of an interview. So maybe there's always exceptions to the rule, but you know, my, my point is that sort of a little bit of self belief without being arrogant that you're probably going to be all right.

Chris Whyte (: 49:13

trust the process.

Chris Whyte (: 49:19

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 49:33

you're probably going to think of some something. And, you know, I'm kind of obsessed with David Hockney at the minute. So David Hockney wrote this book on secret knowledge about the camera, lucida and various optical techniques. And what I love about it is that one of the parts, I won't actually tell you exactly why I'm reading it, because that's a bit of a gambit for another client.

that I'm doing a talk on. But I'll tell you one of the other nice anecdotes that I've gleaned from it. So you can definitely buy the book because it's amazing and you might figure out where I'm going. But he has this rather wonderful technique of printing out all the information that he needs to look at. And you might be thinking, well, how is that different from using Miro or using some other whiteboard project? And I think, you know, this is not someone, David Hockney is famously very

Chris Whyte (: 49:59

You

JudePullen.com (: 50:27

into technology, done iPad stuff and you know he's not a Luddite. But the fact that he's like you got to print it out and you got to stand back and you just got to like let your brain do the thing your brain does and then he's like yeah you can see it and there's this big thesis he builds and I don't want to spoil it for you but it's an absolute atom bomb in the art world. It's terrific.

And it's just, you know, obviously part of that he's doing for the narrative and for the documentary, but genuinely I'm doing this, I'm doing a Hockney in my own small way with a project where there's a vast amount of information and I'm just like, I'm just gonna put it up there and I'm gonna trust that the patterns will start to emerge. And also that weird thing of if you, I said to Sugru before I got head hunted by them, I said, I...

They said, if we send you some samples, will you do something cool? And, you know, within a week. And I said, hope you don't mind. I said, I think if I do something in a week, it will be a knee jerk and it'll be just, you know, something everyone else has done. I said, can I have like three months? And I think an idea will come that will really impress you. And then it's actually about two months, but I ended up creating this new technique on how to apply Sugru in thin veneers.

and it ended up being picked up by Make Magazine and it was the first article ever got paid to do. So even from that early moment, I've always believed in, I would rather take a little bit longer and do something really special than just sort of go, I saw that online, I'll do a sort of thing, I'll do a riff off that. I mean, I kind of wanna see how it plays out with Rick Rubin.

Chris Whyte (: 51:57

wow.

JudePullen.com (: 52:20

Sorry, just to completely jump the topic there. So Rick Rubin's just got into this whole vibe coding thing. You might've seen it trending and this means the podcast is going to date. So apologies. But you what the hell, might as well state my colors to the mask. But he said in an interview that he had sort of like, he was really just jumping on something that was a bit of a joke. And then he realized it wasn't a joke. And part of me sort of on the one hand, respects his agility, but on the other hand, having looked at it, I'm just like,

Chris Whyte (: 52:30

haha

It's fine.

JudePullen.com (: 52:50

I'm not sure you've actually given it as much thought as your usual stuff. And so I think it's gonna, we're gonna have to see how it plays out, but either the reality is gonna be Rick Rubin can indeed play fast and loose, or actually Rick, slow down, be more Rick. And actually like, do write the book, do take the time, don't just crank it out with some agency.

and agency i mean as in graphics agency not not agency to do the thing but but i just i sort of feel like you know and again i'm not taking a shot of rick rubin i absolutely am obsessed with him but but i think i think it's interesting that that tension between for something really valuable to come it occasionally has a eureka moment but more often than not it doesn't it's it's grind and graph

And I think that's what I feel a lot of my work is trying to do is that thing of being extremely prepared so that when the moment comes, you go, I've already been thinking about this for two and a half years. Now that might answer the very question with Rick Rubin of that if he was here to defend himself, he might go, you're wrong, Jude. I've actually been thinking about this for 10 years. Just lightning rod appeared. Boom, here we are, vibe coding. But I still feel...

I still think he's overreaching by saying that, you know, I'm sure he's just playing the game with the internet of not being measured. And he's saying a few flamboyant things, which I'm just like, coders aren't out of a job, you know, it's sort of, you still need people who know how the architecture actually works, but yes, these tools are gonna make it really, really fast. But I think the one thing I would never dispute him on is that lowering the bar,

Chris Whyte (: 54:31

You

JudePullen.com (: 54:48

so that people who aren't supposed to be in the party can gate crash. Now that I'm a massive fan of, I've always, mean, my whole career is turning up to parties I wasn't invited to and going, can I jam? And I think that's why I love Rick Rubin. That for me is the quintessential Rick Rubin thing is, what's a white guy producing hip hop with black people?

Chris Whyte (: 54:56

Absolutely.

JudePullen.com (: 55:16

I mean, like, that's the whole point. He's not supposed to be in the room. And yet, here he is. And I kind of, you know, I mean, I won't swear on the podcast, you know, but I have extreme disdain for you're not invited, mentally. Unless it has a very good reason, but more often than not, it doesn't. It's just, you know, yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 55:42

Absolutely. No, it's fantastic. yeah, I was just thinking about the moments when I'm creative and the daydreaming and the, it's very, difficult to force creativity, isn't it? You can't just like give us an idea like that. sometimes, personally, some of my best ideas come, well, I feel that my best ideas, that's obviously very subjective, isn't it? But when I'm in the shower or when I'm like driving, you know, when you've got nothing, no,

JudePullen.com (: 56:10

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 56:12

Nothing else that your brain is focused on other than kind of a menial task kind of thing. But then.

JudePullen.com (: 56:17

I would say yes to all of that. But I think one of the things that and again, I can go on a huge rant about this lacking in education, but also the workplace. There's a book I remember reading, which take me a pinch of salt called the coddling of the American mind. I don't know if you read it, but essentially the sort of pointing out that if we lose our ability to have a heated debate, then we're sort of

losing a huge part of our humanity and actual progressiveness. you know, I sort of feel there's, you know, to your point, I agree with you. I get some of my best ideas walking in the park, daydreaming, dah, dah, dah. I also get some of my best ideas after having a massive debate with someone. And again, comes back to the yin and yang, walking away intellectually sort of bruised and battered, but going,

Chris Whyte (: 57:04

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 57:13

damn, I think they're right. I think that bit that bit, but then now I'm going to hold firm on this and then I'm going to combine it with that. And then something someone else said three weeks ago that yeah, that's where we're going to mix it. And I think that there is and again, if we talk about the workplace, I would say I have probably about five people I can have a this goes no further discussion.

do you know, really like, if you recorded this, I would probably be in a lot of trouble, not because of confidentiality to clients. You just go, this is sort of like a political suicide, you know, debate. And my point isn't because I like being controversial or saying taboo things because it somehow is titillating in and of itself. And she go, no, this is a really complicated ethical thing.

Chris Whyte (: 57:40

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 58:08

and I don't know the answer and I need someone I can debate hotly the what ifs. And I think around AI, you're not sweating and feeling really uncomfortable at least once a month in your job, like, and you're just like, no, we're building, building, building, sprint, sprint, sprint, it's all good. You're like, really be worried. Like any new technology, like again, David Hockney's book.

beautifully articulated in a way that I think isn't referenced anywhere near enough. I feel, yeah, part of my job is, you know, feeling like I've had my head held underwater in something, you know, and being really uncomfortable, but coming out the other side feeling I am much more confident in the direction we're going and I'm being paid to

Chris Whyte (: 58:49

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 58:59

to imbue others with that confidence and that layered knowledge, citations, references, network, people, all of those sorts of other pieces of hard and soft evidence. But I feel like that for me is almost unparalleled in a career that design is just absolutely wonderful for sort of getting into those, as they say, of making, they used to say in Lego, making the right kind of trouble.

Chris Whyte (: 59:27

Yeah, I like that.

JudePullen.com (: 59:28

And I feel that's the thing of knowing that you're doing it for all the right reasons, not for cynicism, not for contrarianism, but for the right reasons.

Chris Whyte (: 59:40

Massively. Yeah, no, it's yeah super super interesting. We could talk about that for four hours diving into that because it's um We're up to an hour You know what I think, you know, we're much like your crew We haven't gone about the the show order in a in a conventional path, but I think we've covered a lot we've kind of had little visits to different areas of the of the topics

JudePullen.com (: 59:47

I was just looking at the clock going almost an hour. Wrap it up dude.

JudePullen.com (: 01:00:05

Yeah, that's just my little slap in the face to GPT trying to script me. It's not gonna happen, mate. So I don't know, guess some people will love this and thank you for listening if they've got this far and feel free to message me and tell me I'm wrong. Those have been some of my best friendships of people who disagree with me.

Chris Whyte (: 01:00:10

Hahaha

Chris Whyte (: 01:00:27

Massively. Yeah. And you know what, what you were saying then about kind of, yeah, the heated arguments, the safe space to throw ideas around, you know, some of those bossy, I have great ideas in the shower, actually, it's, it's coming out of those interactions and those conflicts or those even when I've been on like, training courses, I've met someone inspirational, and my head's just spin like, that was incredible, and confusing.

JudePullen.com (: 01:00:44

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 01:00:56

how on earth am I going to get the best out of it? And then the ideas start flowing about how you can implement kind of that. And the same with technology. So these days, it used to be okay, I think, 10 years ago to be a late adopter, wait until kind of someone else had figured out the quirks and make sure that there's a viable use to it. these days, I think if you're a late adopter to some of the technology coming down the line, then you are.

very quickly behind the curve, certainly by industry I presume, designed to a certain extent as well.

JudePullen.com (: 01:01:29

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 01:01:32

I know, don't, I'm sorry, I don't know if you're trying to wrap up and I'm going to expand it again, but, but I guess I, I guess I, I don't know, my, my gut sort of slightly disagrees with that, if I may. That's it, you just stop the tape now. Yeah, that's it. Is, I don't know, I, I feel like I have a bit of a

Chris Whyte (: 01:01:36

No, it's fine.

Chris Whyte (: 01:01:46

This is a way to end on a, because it's in spirit of the topic. How dare you!

JudePullen.com (: 01:02:00

think what was the trigger word was adopting. think it would almost be more helpful if companies, rather than trying to adopt things, they just said we're going to be early. This isn't scripted, I haven't thought of it, but the word feels like play. And that's not because I'm trying to be all like legowy and all sort of, you know, fun and naive. It's going no, genuinely. I

Chris Whyte (: 01:02:20

Okay, yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 01:02:29

That was actually the sort of the conclusion to the AI series I wrote for Design Spark when we visited Lion Vision. The point is you shouldn't set up an entire team all with like 100k plus salaries and say, well, good, we've hired a load of AI boffins and we're gonna like ace this now. And we've told all our shareholders this is gonna be superb and we're gonna make billions. I think it's infinitely better idea to go,

right, should we have a hackathon? Should we just see who in the company is going to step forward when we say beer and pizza and fun? And don't get me wrong, I think there's some nuances. You need to make sure that parents can be included. Don't just do everything after hours and all that sort of stuff. I'm completely on board with that. But creating sort of spaces where

the people in the company step forward and they'll always surprise you. That was the nice thing about most hackathons I've been to. I went to like six day hackathon with MIT, Boston Consulting Group and Lego in Berlin. And I was helping put the list together and we deliberately just kept putting, just phoning our networks of people going, there's almost no brief, we're just working with new technology. Just do you wanna come participate and play?

And I think creating those spaces where that is considered and dignified as work, as opposed to like a jolly or like not really work, you're just having some fun. mean, that's why I sort of started Open Ideas Day at Dyson, which was like one day a month where you could work on anything. But at some point it would be...

helpful if you related it back to the business. you could make a chocolate fountain if you wanted to. It was never gonna get made into a Dyson product. But the point is allowing people to experiment and not feel that they're gonna be ridiculed or it's gonna hold their career back. I know you weren't, I realize I'm sort of just digging into that question, but I think that's the sort of thing that.

JudePullen.com (: 01:04:42

You know, the playfulness, if that's the thing that needs to be adopted, it's just the idea that you've got to somehow wholesale go, well, we're going to use Copilot and we're going to integrate this into Microsoft Teams or whatever. And you just go, no, just see what happens if you ask it to plan your kid's birthday party. Just actually take something really, you know, maybe for some people that's really high stakes, so that's bad idea.

You know what I mean? Like run a real scenario that you care about, but that doesn't cost $50 million, right? And I just feel that what's interesting about that is people think, but how does a birthday party teach a massive multinational? And you go, because you're going to learn all the bits it falls over with. You know, like you'll realize it got the ratio of cake per child wrong, or it forgets to order party bags.

you know, or it doesn't have a vegan option because you didn't prompt it to have a vegan option. So all of those sorts of things, you realize the total capability of something much, quicker. I think that's, yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel that that is basically all I do is I just play with things as early as possible. But then I try to look at the parallels of how that scales to sort of, obviously,

business, you know, infrastructure and more complicated things. But yeah, so I wasn't jumping on your point. Forgive me, Chris, if I was being pedantic, but I was just, I just feel I wanted to underscore that point that the, that the sort of the business value, the commercial value of creating those opportunities for your employees, and also not believing that the design team is the only team capable of design. You know, that

Chris Whyte (: 01:06:14

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 01:06:18

No, not at all. think...

JudePullen.com (: 01:06:36

That's what I love is you will get someone left field. So one of the best, one of the most surprising people I had at RS who's left is there was a guy who worked in IT, but basically he was sort of really deep into philosophy. And so the IT was really a sort of tip of his interests and capability. And some of the other discussions for work that we did later on.

Chris Whyte (: 01:06:36

Absolutely,

JudePullen.com (: 01:07:04

would not have happened without someone like that. But you know what I mean? If I just said like, well, I need the creative people. Why would I get someone from IT? You he does the security. He's not gonna be creative, but massively so. So yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 01:07:14

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 01:07:21

I love the idea of the hackathon, the fun day. We're to just play with tools, technology, ideas, and just see what comes out of it. think that definitely expands on my viewpoint. It's great.

JudePullen.com (: 01:07:32

Mm.

JudePullen.com (: 01:07:39

Yeah, mean, we're probably preaching to the converted here, but I think that's where the knack is interesting is how do you also make it so that people who, I think one of the downsides of hackathons is sometimes if you overemphasize the competition, then people go, well, I couldn't join in with that because I don't know how to get to the finish line. And you go, you need to reassure those people you might give the right insight. So sometimes it could be someone from the call center.

Chris Whyte (: 01:07:43

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 01:08:07

And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you can't code, you can't build, you can't do anything of that, but you're actually right next to the consumer and you understand all the stuff that goes wrong and where the bodies are buried and the skeletons in the closet, we need you. And so I think, again, I think it's sometimes the factory floor, the call center, the service repair person, the infrastructure meltdown center, whatever.

You know, it's like those people sometimes have the stuff that you could go pay your big McKinsey's and Baines to like, and I think, you know, dare I say, I'm not gonna say that they do this otherwise I don't wanna get sued. But I think sometimes the secret of some of those companies is they just, they have an access all areas pass to go have a discussion to get the gold.

which a company could have figured out themselves if they actually did it. And that's not to talk you or I or them out of a job, but it's almost sort of going so really the really good creative stuff is then taking those conversations and translating it into projects. And so that that I don't mind charging for because I'm like, that is a that is a hard one technique and skill. Most people can't do it without a lot of practice, but

Chris Whyte (: 01:09:32

Yes, you got to, you got to, yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 01:09:33

starting those conversations is the gold.

Chris Whyte (: 01:09:38

Yeah, you've got to be able to empower people to kind of be free to give their opinion and ask those questions and get involved, which under normal kind of hierarchy and bureaucracy of the business, you know, you're set an IT, you're creative. but this person coming in is, is allowing you to be, you know, and allowing to ask those philosophical questions. So wonderful.

JudePullen.com (: 01:09:51

Yeah.

JudePullen.com (: 01:10:02

When allowing people to be vulnerable and outspoken, I think that's also the other thing is the idea that you're not sending your career into a tailspin because you're saying, it's not even to be arrogant enough to say it's wrong, just sometimes to say, I don't know why we do this. I mean, I've literally today just written email, I was looking at some various, you know, sort of stocks and sales analysis and I was just like,

Do you think this is just completely undersold? You know, it's just a question. I was like, here's some other references. And you know, it's starting a conversation. I didn't write it quite as bluntly as that. I sort of laid it down, but I think it's sort of, you know, finding a company in a place where they're willing to pay for someone to go, I'm gonna sort of dig a little deeper. And weirdly, you know, again, one of the jobs I also look up to in recent years is journalism.

didn't train in that, I do a module at that in engineering. But I feel the people talk about the scientific method. I feel that the journalistic method is something that I would love to see a revival of. mean, Lord knows we need it with fake news, right? But, you know, I feel like the ability to sort of look at good journalists and how they go deep onto something often, you know, great cost to themselves. I mean, I just

Chris Whyte (: 01:11:18

Yeah, not off.

JudePullen.com (: 01:11:29

just did an interview with Forensic Architecture who are, you I think some of the best in the business of this, of using technology to look at, you know, sort of social injustice and all sorts of very complicated, you know, circumstantial, environmental and political factors. And I think, yeah, I think we need more of that. Sorry, I'm overshooting time.

Chris Whyte (: 01:11:52

massively. Yeah. No, it's no, it's brilliant. I could talk to you for hours, dude. I think I really enjoy our conversations. And we'll have to kind of do a revisit, I think, at some point in a later series, because there's so much we could dive into. But yeah, we're gonna have to call it there because we are going over time. I've got another appointment coming up. But thank you. You got the score run. So it's a nice natural conclusion. But

JudePullen.com (: 01:12:14

Yep, I've got school run.

Chris Whyte (: 01:12:20

That's been amazing. I'm really looking forward to getting the feedback from the people who are listening. Just before we do very quickly wrap up, how can people get in touch with you? Is it LinkedIn the best way?

JudePullen.com (: 01:12:29

My name is very unusual so Jude Pullen will either bring you to my website or it's the only name on LinkedIn. I post on LinkedIn. I would also say yeah please I meant what I said about being debated, told I'm wrong, know obviously respectfully and without death threats but yeah no genuinely I'd part of the reason I

Chris Whyte (: 01:12:50

You

JudePullen.com (: 01:12:55

wanted to come on this podcast is yeah, I'm aware you've got a really lovely group of people and thinkers and doers, most importantly. So yeah, really looking forward to seeing where this takes us. Thank you.

Chris Whyte (: 01:13:07

Yeah, and I'm looking forward to all the arguments that start on your LinkedIn feed now as well. But brilliant. Jude, thank you so much. It's been great to have you.

JudePullen.com (: 01:13:12

Careful what you wish for It's a pleasure, take care.